Mohawk-John Woods ([info]aciel) wrote,
@ 2008-10-06 23:32:00
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Current location:Home, 4505 Duval St, Austin, TX, US
Entry tags:depression, friends, introspection, maxine, politics, science, virginia tech

A reason to keep up the fight
A couple days ago, a friend lashed out at me over my tendency to make political comments.

It doesn't matter which friend this was. It's likely there are others who feel similarly but don't say it, and it's good to get verbal feedback from time to time. Certainly her anger gave me pause. It made me think.

I believe scientists have a duty to question their own beliefs1, and therefore also to discuss their beliefs with others. Just today through conversation, I learned that an assumption I had made was introducing unnecessary complications into my research project.

I would never have known the assumption was wrong were I unwilling to talk about the project. Taking part in a discussion with someone much more knowledgeable wasn't easy by any means: I still don't know exactly what I'm talking about, and it's always embarrassing when someone else discovers that.

Politics is a lot like biology. Everyone involved has a hypothesis, whether she admits it or not; and not everyone's hypotheses can be correct. Through discussion--political discourse, it's called--we have mostly managed to converge on a handful of these models of reality.

Democrats have one such model: as Stephen Colbert once said, "Reality has a well-known liberal bias." Republicans have another model. A third is embodied in the group of people who consistently vote for Ron Paul, Ralph Nader, or anyone else who has no chance in hell of winning. There's even a fourth, in those who refuse to vote at all, arguing that it would be buying into a broken system.

None of these models is inherently correct (or incorrect). They all have strengths. I happen to believe that Democrats come closer to reality with their model--and that's why I happen to be a Democrat. I also believe that Democrats and moderates2 are more open to discovering that their model is wrong, but maybe I just think that because I'm open to being wrong.

If one is willing to discuss one's beliefs, one can learn about alternative points of view. One can take advantage of other people's accumulated wisdom. That accumulated wisdom is the foundation--as well as the product--of science. We turn to doctors for medical advice, Stephen Hawking for physics help, and Al Gore (whom my parents have affectionately taken to calling the Goracle) for tips to avoid the coming apocalypse3.

If one is unwilling to discuss beliefs, one is nothing more than an adherent of a cargo cult. (Cargo cults are justified interpretations of reality based on narrow observations. Cult members are coerced by explorers into building runways in the jungle, so the explorer's hired airplane can drop more supplies for the explorers. Later, after the cults' respective explorers leave, they build new runways and attempt to repeat the radioing-for-supplies ritual to induce the plane-god to return and give them supplies.)

As for me, I have pressing reasons to participate in and discuss politics. Politics is not something I see on television: politics has immediate and deadly effects. The Rwandan genocide was allowed to happen because Americans saw it as politics on television. Virginia Tech on 4/16 was my life--but to so many people, it was just more politics on television.

The gun lobby even likes to use the it's-all-politics line as a talking point: "In what can only be seen as the politicization of a tragic event for political gain, the gun-control advocates at the Brady Campaign To Prevent Gun Violence and ProtestEasyGuns.com...sought to hold their own demonstration on the Drillfield at [Virginia] Tech [on 4/16]..."4 What they don't mention is that this very demonstration was organized by survivors and victims of the shooting.

The pro-handgun crowd isn't alone in using the it's-politics line--but the gun lobby is especially relevant to me because the background check system was one of many failures that contributed to my friends' deaths. That background check system was hobbled by the NRA and GOA well before the shooting, and it is still hobbled. Thirty-three people had to die to close one loophole, and others remain open. For comparison, consider that only five people were killed in the Boston Massacre, and we had a revolution over that.

It's never just politics. Universal healthcare saves lives. Making guns harder to access (e.g., with trigger locks and cooling-off periods) prevents suicides. If your congressman votes to bomb somewhere, people are going to die. That congressman's constituents have a collective responsibility for those deaths, even if they didn't vote. I'm not suggesting war is universally wrong, or that there aren't just wars; but I am suggesting that citizens have a responsibility to be aware of whom we're killing and why.

There is a reason I canvass for the Obama Campaign and not for the Brady Campaign. If Obama does a good job as president, a whole new generation of voters will be inspired by progressive values. They will see that the Democratic Model of Reality (DMOR) works when applied to the world. The DMOR tells us that the world is not as simple as Good Versus Evil, that corporations have too much power over our legislature, that empathy and willingness to listen are as important as discipline. If more people adopt the DMOR, better and safer gun laws will follow.

I participate in politics because I desperately need to see that a good person can win and make positive changes in the world from time to time. I need to know that the person who murdered my love is not representative of humanity. Life cannot be the Lord of the Flies, or I will surely perish too.

Slowly but surely, I am perishing. For so long I've been quiet about Max and the others, because I never want to use my tragedy as an excuse for bad behavior. I don't tell new acquaintances about what happened because I can't bear to see the stricken looks on their faces, can't bear to think other people are feeling a fraction of the pain their deaths caused. For months I had this odd view of reality where by writing about the shooting I could help other people value their loved ones without first having to lose them.

I reach out and I share my political beliefs in hopes that someone will take my outstretched hand, that he or she will be inspired rather than forced to care. That's why I was so livid when my friend suggested I (wrongfully) inject politics into everything: not only had I failed to inspire this person, but she fundamentally failed to understand me.

I live in a different world from her. She lives in the world I lived in before April 16th, 2007. In that world, Bad Things only happen to friends of friends--not to friends. In my world, my love dies again every time I hear what might or might not be hammering elsewhere in the building during class. She dies every time the University tests its warning siren. She dies every time there is a suicide bombing in Iraq.

If I stop talking about politics, my heart might as well stop beating.

Footnotes

  1. This does not apply to religious faith. Faith is a different kind of belief entirely, which can't be questioned on the basis of factual evidence. Otherwise, it's not faith.

  2. Maybe moderates are just more likely to be skeptical of all things.

  3. Al Gore turns to scientists. He doesn't just manufacture it.

  4. The linked source is not directly associated with the Gun Lobby, but it's definitely Gun-Lobby-funded public relations. I've seen this exact line in NRA press releases before, though I don't have one on-hand.

The title of this entry refers to a song by Great Big Sea, "Buying Time."



(Post a new comment)


[info]stuck
2008-10-07 08:10 am UTC (link)
I take some issue with your notion of politics modeling a worldview (at least, that's how I read it), but I'm too tired right now to write out anything cogent. (a.k.a. bedtime)

Ugh, but I will say this. It seems somewhat backwards - that two people may support Obama does not mean they have the same Model of Reality - just that their selection of Obama is more like the projection of their model onto their interaction with the world (with various caveats etc. - like I said, tired). (cf. vector dot-products)

Edited at 2008-10-07 08:16 am UTC

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[info]aciel
2008-10-07 06:04 pm UTC (link)
Yes, you're absolutely right. There are Reagan Democrats and progressive Democrats, for example. I'm being someone John-centric in my characterization.

I have a friend whose family is very involved in the GOP. When I learned she was a Republican, I was astounded. Her world view is very similar to mine, I thought. I still think this, almost a decade later, and she's still a Republican (well, I assume so; she can't say since she's a reporter). But that just makes her a moderate.

Similarly, there are gun-owning Democrats. They don't have the same world-view as me.

You can be moderate/progressive/willing to change in some areas but be stubborn in others.

Just some random thoughts, not exactly an answer. But does this clarify?

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[info]phylomath
2008-10-07 11:46 am UTC (link)
Even though we're both in the Obama camp, I disagree here and there with various political subjects you've blogged about--but I like that, as it makes me think about my position and why I adhere to it. I say, keep injecting those politics, as it's always grist for the mill.

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[info]aciel
2008-10-07 06:05 pm UTC (link)
Heee. Don't be afraid to say what you disagree with.

If it's the bail-out stuff, you're probably not alone, but that's definitely not a partisan thing (yet). No one knows what to think about it, and that's why you see the most conservative and most progressive members of the House uniting over it.

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[info]mizukaze
2008-10-07 11:54 am UTC (link)
Actually, despite your passionate argument here to the contrary, in a neuroscience study researchers found that politics works almost exactly like faith, vis-a-vis the "myth of the rational voter." Most people do not change their minds easily about politics based on a compelling argument, unless it is couched in language that appeals not to reason or logic, but to emotions, and first impressions, particularly in politics, can cement that voter's decision-making about a candidate or party for a very long time.

I can't reference the study because I have to get in to work right now, but I'll find the link from I believe the Beeb, but there was another one (it comes from Marginalrevolution.com, which is a really good blog that you might find interesting to read, as it's all about making things better, but through less governmment creep, rather than rapid and unchecked expansion of federal control of more aspects of our lives and decision-making.)

Anyhow, interesting post, and I'm glad that you do try to be political based on reason. Precious few other people do.

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[info]aciel
2008-10-07 06:13 pm UTC (link)
Hmm. So, to comment fairly, I'd really need to read the study very carefully. Still, I'm skeptical because it sounds a lot like pop-neuroscience.

Still: Just because politics works like religion doesn't mean that it's LIKE religion. People can be stubborn about both, but that doesn't mean the beliefs are subject to similar rules.

I actually mentioned religious faith primarily because I wanted to make it clear that my argument does NOT apply to faith. That doesn't mean it can't be applied, just that I don't want to go there. It's an endless, pointless debate.

I'll add the blog to my Google Reader list. Thanks.

Oh, and a note about guns since your past comments indicate the debate is of interest to you: my current hypothesis is that the net cost of guns is greater than the net savings. Unfortunately, that hypothesis cannot be tested right now, since the gun "product-defense" industry has effectively quashed funding for studies on gun death statistics. If that funding was un-quashed, I'd be willing to consider publicly-funded studies on the topic. (I'm not willing to consider NRA- or industry-funded studies. That's true with any issue, not just guns.) If the studies suggested I've been wrong, I'd change my position.

Would you? This is an innocent question. I'm mostly curious.

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[info]hippiepixie
2008-10-07 01:43 pm UTC (link)
It looks like people are taking issue with the politics-as-scientific-experiment part of this. I'm not really sure whether I agree with that or not, but the part of what you said here that really stood out to me was about politics not just being something that happens to other people on television - that's something I have to remind myself of a lot when I'm feeling bogged down in the "game" aspect of this election.
I said something really similar a few weeks ago when I was talking about Freddie, etc.:
I feel sort of uneasy about politicizing something as personal as suicide by tying it into the gun argument, but then again what's the point of politics if not trying to make real people's lives better? As you well know, this shit isn't abstract, isn't just a philosophical experiment, and isn't about winning points for your debate team - it's real.

I don't know what else to say other than don't ever stay quiet!

P.S. You're scared of phone banking, but you like canvassing? That's not something I see very often.

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[info]stuck
2008-10-07 03:12 pm UTC (link)
P.S. You're scared of phone banking, but you like canvassing? That's not something I see very often.

I'm the same way. I'd choose door-to-door canvassing over phone banking any day. There's much more feedback when canvassing and it's easier to adapt or change what your saying based on your surroundings.

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[info]topaz
2008-10-07 05:16 pm UTC (link)
also, people will say things on the phone that they would never dream of saying to your face. :P

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[info]aciel
2008-10-07 06:17 pm UTC (link)
Ted Tubes Stevens much? =D

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[info]aciel
2008-10-07 06:17 pm UTC (link)
I actually hate both. But there's someone else with me when I go canvassing.

It may also be that I only hate canvassing because Texas is really fucking hot. I almost had a heat stroke last month while knocking on doors.

Truthfully, I've only block-walked once. I keep meaning to do it again but I'm in prelim season. I have spent a fair bit of energy registering voters, though, and I always try to talk them into volunteering.

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[info]hippiepixie
2008-10-07 07:40 pm UTC (link)
I actually agree, but most of my volunteers don't!

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[info]aciel
2008-10-07 06:15 pm UTC (link)
I remember you saying that very thing to me about Freddie. I tried to make the same argument I made in this entry, but didn't do so very effectively.

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[info]hippiepixie
2008-10-09 01:33 pm UTC (link)
Paul Wellstone, saying something similar:
"Politics is not predictions and politics is not observations. Politics is what we do. Politics is what we do, politics is what we create, by what we work for, by what we hope for and what we dare to imagine."

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[info]aciel
2008-10-09 07:05 pm UTC (link)
That's a very good quote. I'm going to use it in a presentation in a couple of weeks. Thanks.

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[info]acielskadi
2008-10-07 04:32 pm UTC (link)
Truth be told, I'm one of those people who disagrees with your stance on many issues. However, I see little chance of either one of us swaying the other should we debate, so I don't.

I read your entries because I find them engaging and interesting and food for my thought. Pretty much why I read this guy's stuff, too.

Probably not what you wanted to hear, huh?

Good luck in your fight, but please know in my own way I'll be fighting against you on some points.

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[info]aciel
2008-10-07 06:29 pm UTC (link)
Why do you think this is something I don't want to hear? Discourse is healthy. I'm upset about people who turn off rather than discuss.

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[info]acielskadi
2008-10-07 07:23 pm UTC (link)
I don't turn off; that I can promise you.

I live/work in DC and politics feels like a damned ocean the rest of us are drowing in. I'm totally saturated most days, so it's the most I can do to appreciate what you have to say without talking about it.

I'd much rather digest what you have to say internally and keep my own counsel. Truth be told, I'm not entirely sure why I responded to you today, other than because you seemed to be asking for acknowledgement that your discussion of politics didn't go unheard or misunderstood.

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[info]aciel
2008-10-08 02:14 pm UTC (link)
Oh, just to be clear--you are in no way required to discuss things with me. It sounds like you're doing fine on your own. =)

And thank you for the reply. It means a lot.

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[info]flowerfalls
2008-10-07 07:09 pm UTC (link)
well I don't always agree with you, either, but that's the point, right?

i enjoy reading your blog because it makes me stop, analyze and consider a point instead of just react.

that said, there are a lot of people who just don't want to be bothered. whose idea of a fun afternoon is not one that includes analyzing anything. their world view is one of the immediate, as you point out. even when events happen like 9/11 or 4/16, if they aren't directly affected, their view remains closed. if they are affected - like by losing a loved one - some people react by participating more in the wider issues, seeing the event as a symptom of something larger. this is what happened to you. but for many, they react by circling the wagons. they are so hurt by this introduction to larger causes and chains of events - to politics - that they want nothing to do with it. they are tired and hurt and worried about a million things that are in their immediate circle of understanding that introducing politics and everything it entails is just too much. they want to focus on their own life as they see it.

i'm over-genralizing here but it's a way of dealing with the world that you're fundamentally missing in this discussion. some people just don't want to discuss politics. they want to discuss who's dating who and what flowers are blooming and the best place to get coffee. the political landscape is filled with mines, confusion, mud, and complexity beyond imagining. it is also a landscape that intersects our own, which is what you see and care passionately about. i'm not suggesting you stop caring. i'm just suggesting that you are conscious of who you're talking to, and respect the fact that they don't always want to enter that larger landscape. you are who you are, no doubt, and i don't want that to change - but there is also something to be said for adjusting to those around you. like not cursing in front of small children or the elderly. to you, cursing and politics aren't the same, but to some, they cause the same visceral reaction.



and to make the tone brighter, here's some more GBS goodness:

And I say way-hey-hey, it's just an ordinary day
and it's all your state of mind
At the end of the day, you've still got to say,
it's all right.


and it IS all right. you can just talk about nothing important for awhile. try being open minded towards those who simply want to make it through the day. yes, keep fighting, but also put your fists down long enough to eat and hug and dance. =) it doesn't always have to be about politics, or max, or about anything. and you can learn to appreciate those that are not looking to fight, and dont' know anything about your history. let yourself take a break with them, enjoy their presence as a breather from worrying and thinking all the time. don't belittle that viewpoint, enjoy it!

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[info]aciel
2008-10-08 02:22 pm UTC (link)
but for many, they react by circling the wagons. they are so hurt by this introduction to larger causes and chains of events - to politics - that they want nothing to do with it.

Of course. None of this applies to--for example--Max's family. Or anyone else who's lost someone in such a tragedy. Those people can do whatever they want and have every right to deal with their grief as is appropriate for them.

But that's why it has to apply to the people who've had nothing happen to them. It's not fair that people pay taxes here and then refuse to vote or participate. That's like if someone comes up and asks for a great deal of money and you say, "Sure, here you go, but don't tell me if you use it for anything bad. I don't want to know." That person has more power to do bad things now because you gave him or her a lot of money.

If the exhausted people don't participate because they're grief-stricken and tired, then who's going to stand up for them? Who's going to stand up for the children in Lebanon killed by cluster bombs that we gave to Israel, used in a war we funded?

I'm not saying it should always be about politics, and it's not. I hope. I'll definitely think about this more, though.

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[info]sailorcurt
2008-10-08 01:41 pm UTC (link)

This is the first of your writing that I've read so I'm not speaking about you in general, but I'm speaking about this post specifically. It comes across as self-righteous and self-congratulatory. You seem as emotionally invested in your positions as anyone else, yet you insist that you are somehow superior because you question yourself.

I don't know many people who don't question themselves; yet one can question oneself in very defensive ways...rationalize away any evidence that does not support their pre-established position...and still insist that they are being open to opposing viewpoints.

You claim that you are above all that, yet you make several statements presented as "statements of undeniable fact" for which you fail to provide any support as if the truthfulness of such statements were well settled and common knowledge.

For example:

That background check system was hobbled by the NRA and GOA well before the shooting, and it is still hobbled.

What, specifically, did the NRA and/or GOA have to do with the failure of Virginia to submit Cho's status as "adjudicated mentally defective" to the NICS system?

For comparison, consider that only five people were killed in the Boston Massacre, and we had a revolution over that.

You really aren't THAT unversed in history are you?

Universal healthcare saves lives.

It does? What support do you have for your bold statement?

Making guns harder to access (e.g., with trigger locks and cooling-off periods) prevents suicides.

Really? Upon what do you base this "fact"?

In comments you said:

...the gun "product-defense" industry has effectively quashed funding for studies on gun death statistics.

Funding for gun death statistics studies has been quashed? The CDC and DOJ regularly publish statistics and related studies on gun related deaths and the FBI provides the uniform crime reports and studies based upon those reports. How is this information being "quashed"?

The impression that I get from this post is not so much that you are open to opposing viewpoints, but that you have made the effort to rationalize and dismiss those viewpoints; therefore, you feel justified in self-righteously proclaiming the inherent superiority of your positions.

The [Democratic Model of Reality] tells us that...empathy and willingness to listen are as important as discipline.

And the converse could also be said to be true: The Conservative model of reality tells us that discipline is as important as empathy and willingness to listen.

I would submit that both statements are equally true...and equally meaningless.

I'm more than willing to listen; the fact that I won't change my position in the face of unsupported assertions, and that I'll argue points for which I have countering evidence, does not make me unwilling to listen...only unwilling to be mislead. And I'm sure the same can be said of you as well.

You have my deepest sympathies for your loss. Yet the fact that you've been victimized in a horrible way lends no particular credibility to your expertise on gun laws. I can fully empathize with your grief and anger (and do), while completely disagreeing with your proposed remedies. You equate disagreement with lack of caring. It is not. It's simply disagreement.

I believe that this is true of many of your presumptions about the conservative/libertarian world view. My world view is not informed by lack of compassion or lack of empathy. Quite the opposite. I wish just as deeply as you for no more victims of school massacres or other violent crimes. For those in poverty to be lifted out of it. For the ill to be cared for and for the weak to be protected...I agree with you as to what the destination should be, I simply disagree that the path you have chosen will reach it.

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[info]aciel
2008-10-08 02:40 pm UTC (link)
Oh, wow. This is quite a long reply. I'm concerned that you're arguing with individual points--things that we could discuss for days and days and still not agree upon, or in some cases things that have been poorly stated / misunderstood--at the expense of the larger argument.

The larger argument here is that people should participate in politics. That applies to both conservatives and progressives.

Even if you read between the lines, I hope that it hasn't come across as a promotion of my views so much as me saying in my blog what I believe (usually highlighted with helpful "I believe..." statements).

The rest is just dressing--explaining why I believe what I believe. It's worth noting that I don't really believe in statements of undeniable fact. All premises are deniable, to some extent, except for perhaps "I exist." Well, yeah, you could even deny that--you'd just be wrong.

We could quibble over the details, but I don't think it's important to this entry. If you'd really like to quibble, then I invite you to read any of the many entries I've written on those very details.

One point I especially want to reply to, though, because it indicates I communicated something poorly.

And the converse could also be said to be true: The Conservative model of reality tells us that discipline is as important as empathy and willingness to listen.

This is not the converse of my statement about progressives. Nor was the statement intended to contrast progressives with conservatives. There are people with both worldviews that advocate listening and empathy. It may even be that Bush, for example, is not the cowboy he wants to look like, that he puts on a cowboy costume because it projects strength. Maybe he is very good at listening on the international stage. Hey, I think it's pretty great that he got 30 countries to join his Coalition, y'know? That's impressive. He must have done some listening. But, he makes it appear that he doesn't listen. That's part of the cowboy image.

And Bush is not really a good example of a conservative--just someone with a different worldview than me. And, I hear that he's a really nice person.

But yeah, you're right. The statements are meaningless. I put them in there to give people some idea of what I meant about different worldviews, but it is just fluff. Not at all important to the overall argument.

I'm not quite sure how I equate disagreement with lack of caring. I'm not complaining about conservatives. I'm complaining about people who don't pay any attention, or secondarily, refuse to discuss entirely. It's quite alright with me if people step into the voting booth and vote for McCain or Ron Paul or Ralph Nader. It's also okay if they step into the booth and vote for no one. But it's not okay if they don't step into the booth.

I wish just as deeply as you for no more victims of school massacres or other violent crimes. For those in poverty to be lifted out of it. For the ill to be cared for and for the weak to be protected...I agree with you as to what the destination should be, I simply disagree that the path you have chosen will reach it.

Yes. Absolutely. This is what I want. But the path isn't what is important. It's only important that we're on some path.

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(Anonymous)
2008-10-08 06:47 pm UTC (link)
Point taken.

Perhaps I got a little lost in the weeds on this one. I have no argument with your overall point as stated.

I will be reading some of you past posts. You are very eloquent and seem reasonable...perhaps we can have a constructive conversation about some of these issue.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Sorry
[info]sailorcurt
2008-10-08 06:48 pm UTC (link)
Forgot to log in. That last anonymous comment was from me.

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Re: Sorry
[info]aciel
2008-10-08 06:51 pm UTC (link)
In reply to your comment, yes, please do read and comment! I always enjoy conversation, especially with those who disagree.

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Re: Sorry
[info]aciel
2008-10-08 06:52 pm UTC (link)
And thank you for the compliment.

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[info]ario
2008-10-09 04:21 am UTC (link)
I understand, I think, your frustration. I have the same thing about people who make similar statements about philosophy. Politics and philosophy aren't some realm of pure manipulation or abstract thought or irrelevance; they exist specifically as a realm of discussing crucially important topics. So to say "you politicize things" is essentially the same thing as saying "you make things seem as if they matter". On the other hand, "politics" today often actually means "partisan politics", and if you tend to view everything as specifically about left-right and culture war debates, I can understand how that would be annoying to people--it certainly annoys me when people do that, whether I'm inclined to agree with their views or not. But my interaction with you and your writing hasn't been at all that way; it's been the healthy, important type of politics, that of issues and the public good.

I've been continually surprised at how critical the comments on your blog posts are. This is not because I'm generally inclined to agree with you, it's just that most posters don't seem to give proper diligence to what you say, or to respect that there might be something to it. I say this, at least, from my own experience being one of the most critical people I know, but engaging with ideas in a way that takes them seriously if I want to counter them, rather than being totally dismissive.

This is to say, your style of discourse is shockingly calm and reasonable. I would be impressed by the level of respect and thought you give to contradicting opinions regardless, but especially considering what you've been through, it's especially commendable. Not that I'm exactly suggesting you should, but it's okay for you to lose it now and then, to be a little bit indignant. I think there should sometimes be an element of "how dare you" when peoples' lives are at stake, especially people you knew.

As a final note, don't give up, man. I know what it's like to feel that you're not sure whether the world is decent or not--whether people are good or not. I couldn't give you a solid answer myself. It's something I've contemplated for a long time; I used to think that it was largely a matter of whether your life had been good or not, but then it seemed unfair--how could I say the world is a good place simply because it had been good to me, when things like the Holocaust had happened, and still happen? The conclusion I finally came to is that the world isn't inherently much of anything. It is, rather, entirely what we make of it, and in that sense, whether it's good or bad--whether people are good or bad--is entirely a matter of choice. And what you decide it is, it will be.

People can be disappointing as hell, in so many ways. They can be murderers, they can be uncaring about murder, they can be insensitive, cruel, indifferent, and the people you know best can be something totally other than what you thought they were. The sad truth is you can only directly affect that so much; but you can chose who and what you want to be. People have let you down, and they will again--but you have to keep trying, if nothing else, for your own sake. The strangest part of the human condition is how fundamentally we have a need to truly bridge the gap of understanding with other people, but how ultimately impossible it is to do that. So it's part of being human to continually strive to bridge that gap, even knowing you never totally will, and that you may not have even when you think you did. And one of the most difficult things to do is learning how to need that but to still go on when you don't get it. But the struggle itself is crucially important, and you're a better person for it. You have reached other people, and you will continue to. Keep going.

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[info]aciel
2008-10-09 06:38 pm UTC (link)
Man. I can't tell you how much this comment means to me. Between that and getting results in the lab finally, I went to sleep pretty happy (and then dreamt that a hurricane killed both my iPhone and my laptop--pesky dreams).

One thing I've always struggled with is maintaining a balance between healthy skepticism of my own beliefs and being sufficiently secure (as in, not insecure). If my beliefs are not trustworthy, after all, that means my logic must be flawed--or perhaps I'm not doing sufficiently well at explaining things. But it shouldn't matter anyway, because I know consciously that people with diametrically opposing worldviews are completely unable to understand what the others are saying--so I should just accept that some people are always going to have viewpoints diametrically opposed to my own. And I'm working on that.

I think you're right about the proper diligence, in short. I've even complained about it a couple of times, though I was unable to produce that exact compound word (how apt!). Still, how to know when to be indignant and when to be measured? I was quite indignant when I first read one or two comments on this entry, so I slept on it, and then replied. It helped, I think: now one of those people might take my ideas more seriously.

I may just not be very good at getting angry. Like Barack, I do better when I'm cool and collected. I can rant like a champ, but no one likes a rant.

Another thing I've noticed is that if I give others proper diligence in spoken discourse, I don't give myself proper diligence: I can never think of a good response. If, OTOH, I don't take their ideas seriously, then I have no problem coming up with a powerful retort. I suppose that the mental gymnastics I do to decide whether to be skeptical are a bit too lengthy for verbal sparring.

I'm not really one who believes the world is either good or bad. I agree with you: it is what we make of it. And that, too, is why I'm in politics. But even within that framework, there's badness and goodness. Lord of the Flies is a prime example. There are lots of good people (Simon, Peter, etc), but they always end up overwhelmed by the bad/animalistic ones. So the world is still what people make of it, but the bad ones have much more power in it because of the lengths they're willing to go to.

Philosophy is a great example. I have a friend who drives me nuts by saying he's not interested in philosophy. "You're a freaking scientist," I say. That is a philosopher. I think a lot of it is based on ignorance of the history, sort of like people saying the golden rule is a Christian thing.

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[info]ario
2008-10-10 04:23 am UTC (link)
Thanks, I'm glad it helped in some way. I realized that, ironically, your post about how maybe you're too political was not very political (or, if so, was only meta-political), but everyone responded to it in a completely political way. Maybe that has something to do, at least, with a large number of your readers being apparently not personally familiar with you.

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[info]aciel
2008-10-19 10:54 pm UTC (link)
'S a good point. I hadn't thought about it like that.

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Lord of the Flies...
(Anonymous)
2008-10-10 01:58 am UTC (link)
I'm sure I'd find some reason or other to disagree with parts or all of the rest of your post if I went through it more ( ;) ), but for now, I wanted to address this...

-----

I participate in politics because I desperately need to see that a good person can win and make positive changes in the world from time to time. I need to know that the person who murdered my love is not representative of humanity. Life cannot be the Lord of the Flies, or I will surely perish too.

-----

I recently re-read this book. And I may be misunderstanding your meaning here. I think you're saying that you want to believe that people are basically good. I think you're contrasting that with the beliefs of The Lord of the Flies. And I believe you're suggesting that your belief (or need to believe) that people are basically good is what drives you to participate in politics. Do I have this right?

If so, why work for the Democrats, as opposed to the Republicans? (Or the Libertarians -- or even the libertarians)?

To wit...

I would agree that the book's premise is that mankind is, at heart, a vicious bugger. I would further argue that the book suggests that without the constraints of civilization, without adults/police to keep him in place, man will devolve into savagery. The lack of any sort of governing force, any power through which Ralph/Piggy/Simon can enforce rules, leads to Jack's establishment of a self-centered, hedonistic, violent, destructive anti-society. Do you disagree with this? (I'm happy to argue this point further if you don't).

But this is a problem, at least if I understand how you've defined things above...

Because if you agreed with The Lord of the Flies's premise, that man is violent and ugly and cruel at heart, then you would (presumably -- I think it's safe to assume you find Jack's version of "society" abhorrent) almost certainly be a proponent of big government: government needs to protect us from mankind's willingness to hurt people, especially those outside our monkeysphere. Humans can all too easily slip into the sadism of the most troubled boys of Lord of the Flies, so government needs to set up rules and regulations which prevent such atrocities from ever happening.

But that's not what you're saying, right? You're saying that you want to believe that people aren't like that. You're saying you want to believe that people are good, and can be trusted, and aren't all Jacks at heart. That's fine. But if you believe that (or want to believe that), then why work for the party that is quicker to espouse big government? If you want to believe that people are basically good, then why do we need a big government to make sure that everyone acts appropriately, and takes care of us all?

Yes, yes, the Republicans have plenty of problems with big government as well. I'm not really arguing that you should be Republican/Libertarian/libertarian. I'm just having trouble reconciling your need to believe that people are basically good, and what I've seen of your political beliefs which lean towards the side of big government. It seems to me that your politics lean towards a belief that people are nasty and government can save us from our wicked tendencies, but you espouse above an optimistic view of human nature which, it seems to me, might lead you towards a different political viewpoint. I have trouble reconciling these logically.

Comments?

--Robert Machemer

(who really really likes The Lord of the Flies, even if it depresses him utterly).

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Re: Lord of the Flies...
[info]aciel
2008-10-10 02:22 am UTC (link)
First paragraph, yes.

Brief disclaimer: I haven't read LOTF since seventh grade. Or maybe eighth. It was so long ago that I no longer remember.

If that's LOTF's premise, though, how do you explain the good people? I realize Simon = Christ, but Ralph and Piggy aren't perfect--just good.

I want to believe that people are good and can be trusted. However, they create organizations with emergent properties they cannot control--it's like humans are the constituent parts of organisms, in a way, where the organisms are corporations. So even though humans are mostly good, the corporations need not be good. The corporations just want to survive and grow (like organisms).

In other words, regulation, worker protection, and health care mandates should be there to protect us from the things we create.

People are afraid we'll create an artificial intelligence that will kill us all. I think we've got lots of them already--but they're not very smart--and a bunch of them are tanking the economy right now.

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Re: Lord of the Flies...
(Anonymous)
2008-10-12 07:31 am UTC (link)
Brief disclaimer: I haven't read LOTF since seventh grade. Or maybe eighth. It was so long ago that I no longer remember.

It's a great book. It's not a happy book at all, of course, but it's brilliant allegory.

That said, I'm not sure why it resonates with me in ways that, for instance, Steinbeck's books never do -- LotF's protagonists have nearly the same feel of unavoidable doom hanging over them as those of many of Steinbecks's books, and yet I "enjoy" reading LotF, while I get angered about the depressing inevitability of many of Steinbeck's works.

If that's LOTF's premise, though, how do you explain the good people? I realize Simon = Christ, but Ralph and Piggy aren't perfect--just good.

In fact, I'd argue they're not "good," at least not in the same sense that Simon is -- they both participate in Simon's murder, for instance. But they both try to keep order, fighting against the temptation to chaotic, self-satisfying violence that LotF argues is inside all of us. We, the readers, don't root for them more than Jack for their total goodness, but for their fighting harder against their wickedness. In contrast, Jack and Roger and the rest are much quicker to let loose the reins on their sadism, on their lack of compassion for the littl'uns and anyone who disagrees with them and lacks the power to stand up to them, and so forth, and that's why we tend not to root for them.

I want to believe that people are good and can be trusted. However, they create organizations with emergent properties they cannot control--it's like humans are the constituent parts of organisms, in a way, where the organisms are corporations. So even though humans are mostly good, the corporations need not be good. The corporations just want to survive and grow (like organisms).

In other words, regulation, worker protection, and health care mandates should be there to protect us from the things we create.


Why do you think that man-made corporations cannot be trusted, but man-made government can?

Libertarians (little "l," but it's starting the sentence) might argue that no groups can be necessarily be trusted, that there's no real difference between a government and a corporation, except that the government has more power to make rules to consolidate its power. They'd argue that giving power to the government to protect us from the corporations is giving the chicken coop's keys to the fox. You disagree?

--Robert Machemer

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Re: Lord of the Flies...
[info]aciel
2008-10-12 07:57 pm UTC (link)
Okay, good point about them not being good. I do think people make mistakes and do things that are, in hindsight, moronic and occasionally awful (not calling the police when they hear screaming, etc). But I think my outlook is slightly more positive than Golding's.

Your point about government is awesome, and I hadn't thought about it. Confirmation bias aside, I'd say that government differs from business in more ways than you've accounted for. I'll go through a couple:
  • Business's goal is to make money. It is most robust when it makes the most money.
  • Government's goal is not to make money (unless you count the IRS or Congress, but Congress is kept in check by the voters), and while money helps, it is most robust when approval ratings are high.
  • Government in general is robust when it has power, but again, in our system power is kept in check by voters and checks and balances. The founding fathers designed it this way. That, I think, is why progressives are so concerned by domestic surveillance--it grants undue power.
  • Government does tend to become unwieldy, primarily due to bureaucracy. While this is true of "big government," I'm not sure a country the size of the US can have a small enough government that bureaucratic slow-down is not a problem. Hell, compare a small private college to a large public university and you'll see what I mean--and that's still MUCH smaller than the US!


I'm not quite clear on why the government is the fox, per se. You could transfer power from the government to corporations, but then you'd just be selecting for the most robust corporations. I think a society where the selection is on the most productive workers is superior because they don't get trampled by the corporations so much.

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